tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post8261277973381387377..comments2024-03-18T02:22:56.392-04:00Comments on Disgusted Beyond Belief: The Economics of Charlie and the Chocolate FactoryDBBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-76078237362209948842008-04-03T10:09:00.000-04:002008-04-03T10:09:00.000-04:00E - that's impressive - and I can't help but think...E - that's impressive - and I can't help but think of gaming, just because how my brain works - could you roll dice that way? <BR/><BR/>It is always more satisfying to do your own homework if you do well - hard to be excited about getting an 'A' if you didn't write the paper... <BR/><BR/>STF - I think the whole privilege thing in certain left-wing circles is an extension of the pissing contest you see between various groups about who is the most oppressed. <BR/><BR/>I still think education, quality education, should be guaranteed for everyone. Doing that is what makes a nation a first world nation. What you describe isn't all that different from what I'd advocate - fully funded education for everyone, with a choice about where to go with it. <BR/><BR/>The GOP is not now, nor was it ever, libertarian - it just sounded libertarian when out of power. The GOP is authoritarian.DBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-52059120248214062632008-04-02T12:30:00.000-04:002008-04-02T12:30:00.000-04:00Great post! I'm with you on your analysis of Stan...Great post! I'm with you on your analysis of Standpoint Theory - the left does assume that the less privileged are morally and ethically superior to the more privileged. And that the less privileged have a keener view of injustice. In their view, privilege always results in blindness, not empathy, and lack of privilege always causes righteous anger, not bitterness. It is a legacy of Christianity.<BR/><BR/>I'm with you on universal, single-payer health care, despite my generally libertarian leanings. But we differ on vouchers - in my view there should be no funding at all for public education - all the money that the government spends on education should be used to cut checks to parents. Let parents select private schools and use the checks they get from the government to pay for them. <BR/><BR/>And I long ago realized that the GOP is not really libertarian in any sense.Sweating Through foghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07138602196953744517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-51397628894939090562008-04-02T09:07:00.000-04:002008-04-02T09:07:00.000-04:00My most valuable high school experience was learni...My most valuable high school experience was learning to use my boobs to launch a pen across the room. I could have gotten the hormone-ridden boys across the room to do my homework for me, if I wasn't almost always smarter than them.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315849412290918217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-79583945200195011912008-04-02T08:38:00.000-04:002008-04-02T08:38:00.000-04:00E - it's too bad they can't make that part of the ...E - it's too bad they can't make that part of the curriculum and instead you have to hope individual teachers do something with it. <BR/><BR/>Michael - I don't think socialism generally works either, but sometimes it seems like the choice is between socialism for everyone or socialism just for the cronies. <BR/><BR/>I also think typing is probably the most useful thing I learned in High School.DBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-81393471984655431822008-04-01T21:09:00.000-04:002008-04-01T21:09:00.000-04:00The most useful skill of my adult life (besides ge...The most useful skill of my adult life (besides general "bullshitting" ability ) I learned in high school.<BR/><BR/>How to type.<BR/><BR/>Seriously.<BR/><BR/>As far as what a class of people "deserves", I see it like this:<BR/><BR/>- Socialism doesn't work. It just doesn't. I wish it would. I wish I could lie and say that I could even get on board for it. I can't.<BR/><BR/>- It's a WHOLE LOT easier to make money if you have it. That sounds simplistic, but it's true. If I had $280K right now, I could make $50K tomorrow. TOMORROW. ( our landlord offered to sell us the duplex we live in, thus my bitterness ) Plus, wealth often comes with the knowledge concerning how it was acquired in the first place or at least the necessary connections.<BR/><BR/>-I still don't think it's the government's job to level the playing field. I do think, however, that it's the government's DUTY to not take our tax money and tilt it in the favor of those who are connected croney's. Which is how things currently work.<BR/><BR/>How do we fix it?<BR/><BR/>I have no idea.<BR/><BR/>Any change would have to be sudden, violent and generally unpleasant.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810163963946757439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-13515401428322431622008-04-01T18:45:00.000-04:002008-04-01T18:45:00.000-04:00I honestly don't know what's out there on the elem...I honestly don't know what's out there on the elementary level, but we have a new principal at my high school, and so many of the programs and trainings we're getting in line for next year have this focus. It seems like she really wants to equate a diploma with practical skills rather than just learning facts and passing a test. I was an hour late getting home because I was in my department chair's room getting all the scoop on a class I'll be teaching next year that combines the English curriculum and content standards with a technology-based study/computer/life skills class that really seems to be targeting these exact issues.<BR/>Like I said, I have no idea what anybody's doing in elementary, but I've heard some neat anecdotal stories about teachers implementing entire economies in their classrooms where good behavior is tied to earning money, which is then used to rent desk space, extra credit opportunities, classroom priveleges, etc, or pay "fines" for poor behavior, but that has more to do with individual teachers' management decisions rather than curriculum.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315849412290918217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-26941677543687660212008-04-01T10:15:00.000-04:002008-04-01T10:15:00.000-04:00Tammy - I understand your concerns with "deserve" ...Tammy - I understand your concerns with "deserve" - I actually share them as far as how that word is sometimes used - I think in my own mind, I tend to see "deserve" and "earn" as being interchangeable - in other words, I think you deserve the money you earn. <BR/><BR/>Maybe this is partly because I don't tend to indulge in general judgments about what people "deserve" in general, beyond what everyone is entitled to - like justice, equality, education, etc. Judgments with deserve beyond that (outside the context of punishment for wrongdoing, like stealing or killing) tend to rub me the wrong way, perhaps because of the religious connotations often involved with that. <BR/><BR/>E - I agree with you and I wish schools did more of what you describe - teaching real-world skills that we all need rather than just some watered down curriculum that instead passes for education. I think some people are afraid of having independent minded kids. I think there is also an element of bureaucracy to it all. <BR/><BR/>I'd rather my kids learned practical things, like how to balance a checkbook, handle credit, and all of that, than about "social studies" in some watered down fashion, oversimplified, with any controversy filtered out. <BR/><BR/>We should be educating our children to be good, productive citizens who are engaged in our society economically and politically. Instead, we bore them to death with rote learned nonsense in many places. Some of my classes had wonderful teachers and I learned great things - my humanities class in high school was probably one of the best classes in any high school ever - but lots of other classes were rather dull, uninspiring, and really didn't teach me anything that stayed with me beyond the final exam. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure you have better ideas about how to do all of that than I do, with your practical experience - any suggestions for how to nudge one's school district to do this? My daughter starts kindergarten in just over two years and I worry about what she'll be in for. At the very least, I want to make sure the holes in her education are filled in somehow, even if I have to do it myself. (Though I wonder who can find the time where the holes can be so huge).DBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-65692458066058033252008-03-31T23:52:00.000-04:002008-03-31T23:52:00.000-04:00I also think comprehensive education in personal f...I also think comprehensive education in personal finance is absolutely necessary for making class transitions much more practical. It seems that financial know-how increases with economic status (duh, right?). So why am I <I>still</I> using the trial-and-error method every year to file my taxes? More to the point, why do I get "sticker shock" every year when I calculate my income and wonder why the hell I still live paycheck-to-paycheck? I feel like I'm barely scraping by on $90,000 a year, but nobody in my family ever had any money to manage, so I never really learned how. If we want to decrease the rigidity of economic hierarchy in this country, let's teach everyone how to work their money, not just those who have it.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315849412290918217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-33193801394627132292008-03-31T20:33:00.000-04:002008-03-31T20:33:00.000-04:00"Being born to someone rich doesn't mean one deser...<I>"Being born to someone rich doesn't mean one deserves to be rich -"</I><BR/><BR/>Seeing the use of the word "deserve" in discussions of social class always makes me just a little apprehensive. The word, with all of its moral connotations, is simply too abstract (and too open to personal interpretation) to be truly relevant in such a discussion. An alternative:<BR/><BR/>"Being born to someone rich doesn't mean that one has done anything to EARN his or her wealth."<BR/><BR/>To "earn" is concrete -- the measurable result of following a series of actions. To "deserve", however, is an open-ended judgment of one's virtue. Does the rich heir become more "deserving" of his wealth if he denounces his fortune and gives it all away to the poor? And by contrast, do the poor, who benefitted from his gift, really "deserve" the money since they did absolutely nothing to earn it?<BR/><BR/>See? Too ambiguous.<BR/><BR/>Sigh -- it occurs to me that I just picked apart the word "deserve" in the same manner that you picked apart the Candy Man scene from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (which I truly loved, by the way, and thought was genuinely entertaining... well done, sir).Tammyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17284178735073451870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-65751900980453935442008-03-31T18:46:00.000-04:002008-03-31T18:46:00.000-04:00I think what you're getting at with your "educatio...I think what you're getting at with your "education will help alleviate class differences" problem is the idea of implicit curriculum: the unwritten rules that determine educational success. Most successful students learn these in the primary grades or from their parents(things like how to let a teacher know you don't understand; how to study; where to find the information you are looking for if you don't understand; resources and facilities available outside the classroom; how to build conceptual frameworks for understanding rather than memorizing discrete facts; how to ask questions to get the information you want; how to approach an adult you don't know and ask for something, etc), but by the time they reach middle and high school, these are things students are expected to "just know." I agree that giving parents control over their child's educational choices is important, but I think working harder to teach students that they are capable of steering their own course is even more important. American public schools were originally intended to teach people how to participate in society, not just float along, but it is all too often that we don't ever get around to teaching students how to do anything other than live at the whim of whoever happens to be in charge. So it's no wonder the level of nihilism and apathy we see by the time they reach high school.<BR/><BR/>What I really like about this approach is how it doesn't assume all kids are equal or that all kids are expected to reach the same prescribed benchmarks at the same time, or even at all, but what it does do is try to level the playing field and make sure students' eventual success and status is a product of their choices, interests, and abilities, not factors that are outside their control.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03315849412290918217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-35441843246396364132008-03-31T15:46:00.000-04:002008-03-31T15:46:00.000-04:00I'm sure I'm being way too literal. I'm sure I'm ...I'm sure I'm being way too literal. I'm sure I'm also committing a "sin" that I see done far too often - coming up with all sorts of "meaning" about something that, in the end, was probably just an excuse for a musical number. <BR/><BR/>I've also seen that scene way too many times over the past 37 years.DBBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17805375811782552873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2925765946042638459.post-88760374579088956692008-03-31T15:34:00.000-04:002008-03-31T15:34:00.000-04:00I wondered if instead one could take it for just h...<I>I wondered if instead one could take it for just how Charlie sees it - like all the kids get to dance and get candy for free (seemingly) and he's just left out of it because he's of the wrong class (too poor). Or something like that. In other words, it only SEEMS like candy is given away to him, given the relative wealth difference between him and those other children.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you're taking way too literally what can be interpreted as straightforward dramatic license, just showing class difference in general in a dramatic way without making a point as to very specific conceptual mistakes Charlie might or might not make about those differences.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.com